The Novelry on Writing Podcast: How to Use Screenwriting Secrets in Your Novel

Many writers have dreamed of converting their novels into screenplays, but what if you want the opposite? Do you have a great idea for a screenplay that would be better in a long-form book? Join experienced screenwriters and authors Amanda Reynolds and David Solomons, both writing coaches at The Novelry, for this engrossing episode and learn five mind-blowing tricks that writing for the screen can teach novelists. Read on for the episode transcript. (And if you want to hear more, David’s screenwriting course, exclusive to The Novelry, is coming soon!)

DAVID: Okay, I’ve got a great idea but I’m going to hold it back for the second half, or even the climax of this novel. I’m going to hold it back. Actually—no. Use it early and then figure it out, because that’s a brilliant idea.

AMANDA: And then have somewhere else to go.

DAVID: And then  have somewhere else to go.

Introduction

[David Solomons] Hi, I’m David Solomons. I’m a children’s author. I’m also a writing coach with The Novelry, and today I’m here with Amanda Reynolds.

[Amanda Reynolds] Hi, I’m Amanda Reynolds. I write psychological thrillers and I am also an author coach at The Novelry.

[DS] And as well as being novelists, we have some experience of screenwriting. Today, we’re going to talk through five points of how screenwriting can help your novel writing. So, shall we?

[AR] Yes, let’s.

Dialogue drives narrative

[DS] So, we’ve made notes because we’re very well prepared, and the first one is: dialogue drives narrative. This is the thing with screenwriting, that when you go see a movie, you don’t see the action as written. You don’t see the slugline of the description. You see the location, and what you hear is the dialogue, obviously. So, how then can we use that in our novel writing?

[AR] In coaching, dialogue is often something people say: oh, I really struggle with writing dialogue. How do you write dialogue?  And we give them lots of tips as coaches. The classic one is people-watching and listening.

[DS] Yep. On the bus. It’s very English. Just eavesdrop on the people on the bus.

[AR] Exactly, yeah. Or in the coffee shop or wherever. Or people you know—we do do it. But I think in terms of screenwriting, dialogue is all, isn’t it? It’s basically what we write when we write a screenplay.

[DS] Also, when you look at a screenplay you see how little, how short the speeches are—that’s the other thing. It’s amazing how brief the dialogue is and how much it can communicate in the hands of a good screenwriter. So, I guess maybe that’s the first thing. You don’t need soliloquies in your novels.

[AR] You don’t.

[DS] Don’t get me wrong, sometimes that’s really nice and that can be a thing. But generally speaking, you want to keep it economical. I mean, economical is a word I would use with all aspects of screenwriting, actually.

[AR] It is surprising when you first read a screenplay, which I think is great practice for novel writers, actually, to look at how it renders to the page, how the dialogue is actually there. But when you first read it, it’s quite shocking, isn’t it? How short and—often, this really sort of replicates natural dialogue—how people don’t finish sentences. You know, if you ever tried to transcribe what we are saying now, there would be so much that was sort of half-said.

[DS] But then, for me—see? I’ve just interrupted you in that. It’s a verisimilitude because, obviously, if you transcribe what we’re saying, it’s full of...

There you go. Pauses.

And changes of direction.

And repetitions and ums.

And when you read a brilliant bit of dialogue in a screenplay, it seems like that without being as awkward as that. It still reads, it’s got a rhythm which is not there in many people’s natural style.

I used to go out with a girl and she talked in whole sentences and paragraphs. It was mesmerizing, but so unusual.

[AR] Very unusual. I’ll ask you about that sometime. [David laughing] With dialogue, in terms of using screenwriting skills to transfer that to novel writing, I would definitely recommend that people look at screenplays, but also that they listen to the cadence of speech. And as you say, you try and take that naturalistic form, but turn it into something that is much easier to read off the page.

[DS] And what it does—I mean, that’s the other thing we’re talking about. What’s useful about that style of dialogue? We talk a lot in novel writing about authenticity. Authenticity of the author’s voice and authenticity of the characters. And if you get the dialogue realistic—and again, it’s a verisimilitude, it’s not real—it’s another way of grounding them, another way of...

[AR] Making them feel real, because they have to feel real to us first as we write them. For me, when I start writing—screenplays and novels—I often write by writing my way into a character’s voice. And I know that’s not going to end up in the book, but as soon as I start to hear that voice, then I can start to write it.

[DS] When I’ve written screenplays and I’ve realized, say, there’s a scene and there’s action and I’m like: that speech is a bit too long, so just give that line to another character. Well, that probably means those two characters aren’t well enough defined if I can just take a line of dialogue from one and give it to the other without any hitch. So that’s something to be aware of—that dialogue can also, of course, make character.

• Have they got a particular way of speaking?
• Do they have a refrain?
• Is there an annoying character quirk?

[AR] Yeah, it can be annoying, but without it being irritating.

[DS] Unless you want it to be.

[AR] Unless you want it to be! I sometimes recommend to people to think about a quirk to make distinct characters, which I think is our second thing...

[DS] Shall we?

[AR] We have sort of segued.

[DS] We’ve covered everything about that. [Amanda laughing]

Characters

[DS] Number two—well, it’s characters. You said something very interesting to me before we started, which I had never heard before. Because you’ve had a novel turned into a limited series, and you said the first thing they did with the characters was...?

[AR] Add more. Yeah! We were talking about how we are both quite visual writers, which I think does help with screenwriting. I don’t know if it’s a necessity, but it does allow you to see the scenes in a visual way as you write them. But, yeah, we can take in a lot more characters visually than we perhaps can by reading about them. So, if we do have a big cast of characters in a novel, we need to make sure they’re all very clear in a reader’s mind because we want them to be able to grasp those characters really quickly, to feel that they know them and can visualize them themselves. 

[AR] But at the same time, we don’t want to over-describe. We want to do it in a way that... I mean, maybe through dialogue, and I’m sure you’ve got some thoughts about this as well, but there’s that classic thing of giving somebody something so distinct that instantly we feel: oh, I know that person...

[DS] Yes. And you see that in a lot of screenwriting, where the introduction of a character, they immediately stamp who they are in a few lines of dialogue. Or in a scene, you know exactly who you’re dealing with. And that sort of sets the tone of their character for the rest of the story.

[AR] I always think about characters—in novels as much as screenwriting, actually—that if I was the actor, I’d think: I want that role. I want that person.

[DS] Yes. So, in terms of the advice we’re giving, there’s probably quite a useful bit—when you’re introducing your character, make it work as hard as possible, whatever characteristics or whatever person. Just make it clear from the moment they step onto the page, who they are.

[AR] And that doesn’t have to be a big grand entrance. It can be, you know, the person who’s misjudged and is quiet and we’re suspicious of. They can make as much of an impact as the dramatic Meryl Streep wandering in.

But if you’ve got a lot of characters, particularly in your novel, you really need to think: do I need all of those characters?  Are they all—exactly as you said—are they all earning their place? Or maybe I can amalgamate characters.

When you’re introducing your character, make it work as hard as possible, whatever characteristics. Just make it clear from the moment they step onto the page who they are.
—David Solomons

[DS] That’s something I was going to say, opposite from your experience, which was let’s throw more characters at this story. I’ve written screenplays where I’ve got halfway through and I’ve suddenly gone: oh my goodness, I’ve got 16 characters here, and three of them are doing the same thing. So they will become one. And that’s really satisfying as well.

[AR] It is really satisfying. Killing people off.

[DS] Killing people off, yeah!

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[AR] And I think it’s a little tip, maybe, to think: you know, I’ve cast that person in my novel or my screenplay as a man... And I know Tess Gerritsen said this. She did a workshop for The Novelry where she was a guest. And she said that one of her novels she just couldn’t get to work. And it was because it was a male in a situation. And she thought: how would it work as a female character?  And actually, it just sprung everything to life.

[DS] Do you know, it’s funny—I worked with somebody years ago, and he would write the screenplay and say the protagonist was male. But he would fully intend, at the end of it, he would just switch the gender. And see what happened.

[AR] Really?

[DS] Maybe that segues into our third point, which is editing.

Editing

[DS] One of the things we both say about screenplays is that everything has to earn its place. And like me, with my 16 characters—you know, that’s probably 10 too many. I think they work really well when they’re pared down. An average screenplay is probably, I think, 18–22,000 words, right? How long are your novels?

[AR] Mine are between about 80–100,000 words.

[DS] So it’s a different proposition, but I think it still holds true. Everything has to earn its place.

[AR] Absolutely.

[DS] And there’s a danger, in a way. In the forest of words, you can hide some flaws. I’ve done it myself.

[AR] But you can’t. You never get it—

[DS] You think  you can.

[AR] You think  you can, absolutely. One worry that I try to dispel when I’m coaching is people will say: I’ve got to 40,000 words and I’ve almost finished. My story’s pretty much done.‍

And I’ll say: first of all, you’re in a first draft, and if you are like me, your first draft is a long-form plan and it will expand as you write. And secondly, if you end up with 60–70,000 words, that’s fine.  And it depends on genre.

And don’t ever pad, because I guarantee that whatever you pad with will not have earned its place and will end up being edited out.

[DS] And I’ve made the mistake where I’ve had: okay, I’ve got a great idea, but I’m going to hold it back for the second half or even the climax of this novel. I’m going to hold it back.  Actually—no. Use it early and then figure it out, because that’s a brilliant idea.

[AR] And then have somewhere else to go.

[DS] Yeah. And then  have somewhere else to go. Because if you hold it back, there’s a danger that, actually, it’s just padding till you get to that point. And then your reader’s not going to get to that point, because they’re going to—

[AR] They’re going to be annoyed, because they’re going to be screaming at the screen or the novel—unless they’ve already closed it! And saying: well, why haven’t you just told your wife? Or why are you still hiding that? You know, what is it about that that makes sense?

Don’t ever pad, because I guarantee that whatever you pad with will not have earned its place and will end up being edited out.
—Amanda Reynolds

[AR] Everything that goes into a screenplay or into a novel has to make logical sense. And if it doesn’t, and if it hasn’t earned its place, then even if you don’t have the courage to change it at that point, someone else is going to come along, hopefully, who will help you and say: actually, that’s not working. It’s going to have to change. So, I really would encourage people to make sure that it’s as tight as possible.

I think that’s where screenwriting really is a good discipline. Whether you’ve got an interest in screenwriting or whether your interest is very much in novel writing, I think having a look at screenwriting... You know what it’s like when you’re writing: everything that you consume, you watch—you know, the films and everything—you start to listen in a different way. You start to watch in a different way because you’re looking for craft, and you are thinking: oh, they haven’t said something, but I’ve actually filled in the gap. I’ve worked that out myself.

[DS] Yes. And it’s interesting because I write middle grade, and obviously we write in very different genres. But I really admire authors who are brave enough to let the reader do more work. And I’m always torn because there’s that thing: oh, you’re writing for children, so you’ve got to spell it out.  And there’s the old thing:

1. Tell them what you’re going to do.
2. Do it.
3. Then tell them what they just saw or what they just read.

And it’s just horrible. And you want to be more light-footed than that, and just trust the reader. 

[AR] Trust, yeah.

[DS] And great directors and screenwriters, it’s much more collaborative, obviously. There’s magic that can happen in the editing suite, and you can draw attention to little things with music and other ways of framing images that force the viewer to do the work. But you can do that in novels, too.

[AR] Absolutely. When a reader is totally invested in a story, it’s because they are part of the experience. You know, in my books—which are psychological thrillers—they’re probably playing detective a bit and they’re probably working things out. But in any genre, you want people to use their own imagination, to start picking up the clues and trying to work things out. And not necessarily second-guessing everything that’s coming, but wondering and really becoming a part of the story themselves.

And I love the idea that we write a story but people will interpret it in different ways. They’ll find different things. I’m sure you’ve had questions. I mean, children probably come out with great questions that are actually a bit different than you imagined the story yourself, but that’s quite wonderful in its own way, isn’t it?

[DS] Yes. They go somewhere with it that, you know, as much as I sit there and try to imagine all the possibilities... My stuff tends to be comedy adventures, and so I really work hard on, even though they’re extraordinary stories and they can sometimes be quite silly, I want to ground them. I want to make sure that the logic of the heist works, even if the heist is a magic banana factory, right? Which I haven’t done, but it’s a great idea...

[AR] That’s good!

[DS] I want to underpin it. So then, in the context of that fantasy world, I want it to be absolutely watertight.

Structure

[DS] We’ve talked about editing, but actually, our number-four note was structure. We’ve been really bad because we’ve done editing first and now we’re talking about structure. Is that okay? 

[AR] That’s okay.

[DS] William Goldman, who was a doyenne of screenwriting, said screenwriting is structure. That was his big thing, and I think it’s a really good lesson for novel writing. I think it’s helpful, too. I mean, I’m an accidental author. I’m an accidental children’s author. I wanted to just write screenplays—I thought it would be easier. There are fewer words, and I kind of fell into writing novels. But I feel that the whole notion of structure, it’s helped with every part of what I do now as a novelist.

[AR] I think it’s the key, for me, that always unlocks a book. Because we think about a story and we imagine that when we read a great story, it rendered to the page exactly as the author originally imagined it. But practically speaking, the majority of us are searching for ways to tell the story. And that’s absolutely what structure is. It’s how you tell the story:

• Where do you start?
• Who’s telling the story?
• What format does the story take?
• Is it just one person?
• Does it go backwards or forwards in time?

And I think when you’ve actually worked out the structure, it’s a bit like the skeleton that then everything else is draped over. And for me, along with writing my way into the voice, structure is that eureka moment. It’s like: I understand!  You know, as if I were going to see a friend for dinner and I have this great story, and as I’m walking there, I work out how I’m going to tell it. You know, what’s the drama going to be at the start, and how will I reel them in, and how will I keep them going to the end?

And that structure does come from screenwriting, but it applies incredibly well to novel writing because it’s the bones that we drape the story over.

[DS] You mentioned something there... I think there is a difference between screenwriting and novel writing, and you’re talking about structure timeframe. Because you can play with structure, and obviously there are numerous examples of movies that play with structure and flashback and all the rest of it. As soon as you do that in a movie, you’re in the art house; you’re more than likely out of the kind of mainstream cinema.

[AR] That’s interesting.

[DS] Whereas I think, as a novelist, you can play about with structure, maybe. I mean, is this controversial?

[AR] No, I don’t think it is necessarily. I get it.

[DS] You can play around quite a lot more.

[AR] It’s funny because, having had my first book adapted for TV, I do—and people have asked me this in events. Do you then think about, when you are writing your books, how they might be adapted?  And truthfully, you do, because you’ve been through that process and it doesn’t ever stop me doing it. But sometimes I’ll think: that’s going to be a really hard one to pull off on the screen because that’s a difficult reveal. But if you think about some of the books where you’d think: they’ll never be able to bring that to screen!  They find a way to do it. So there is always a way, but I think they do take different forms and they do have different constraints, but also different benefits as well.

What’s the drama going to be at the start? And how will I reel them in? And how will I keep them going to the end? That structure does come from screenwriting, but it applies incredibly well to novel writing because it’s the bones that we drape the story over.
—Amanda Reynolds

[DS] They will find a way—except that in my experience, they’re always looking for a reason to say no to adapting your books. If they really want to do it, they’ll find a way. But if you’re trying to sell it to them and there’s a reason for them to say no, they’ll say no.

[AR] Oh yeah, of course. I mean, it’s very difficult. To adapt anything is just such a... And I suppose that’s a joy, in a way, of writing a novel, because you are completely in control.

[DS] Yes.

[AR] You are the creator. So you really can do whatever you want.

[DS] Well, you’re everything. You’re your director, lighting, camera person...

[AR] That’s why novel writing is ultimately my love, I think, because I just love the collaborative nature of screenwriting. But, you know, we talked about deadline. You’re working with other people, so you do have time constraints and other people to please as well, not only yourself.

Deadlines

[DR] We’re going to talk about deadline. We’re reaching our deadline, which is our final point. Tell me about deadlines.

[AR] They’re fun in screenwriting, aren’t they?

[DS] What’s the Douglas Adams quote?

I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.
—Douglas Adams

[AR] Yeah. Have you ever written in the room? I wrote in the room once. That was fun.

[DR] No, I haven’t— Oh, I tell you what, I lie. I was in Scotland, and they were doing a big soap opera and they invited me to take part.

[AR] Ooh!

[DS] I lasted an hour.

[AR] Oh, really?

[DS] Yeah.

[AR] I did write in the room. I did enjoy it, but I’m not sure how valuable I was. And it’s lovely because you get lots of positive comments, don’t you? Oh, that’s great. That’s fantastic...

[DS] No bad ideas in the room!

[AR] No bad ideas in the room. It’s good discipline because it really makes you think: well, I’ve got to come up with something.

[DS] When you talk about novel writing and deadlines, to me, that’s the secret sauce. Because the problem is, if you’re an aspiring author, if you’ve not got that deal yet, if you’ve not got the agent and it’s just you and the white bull, you know, that blank page... Set yourself a deadline. Put it in there, engrave it. It’s the motivating factor to beat them all.

[AR] It does focus, absolutely. When you’re in contract with a novel, obviously you have a deadline and you do need to try and maintain it.

[DS] Suddenly you’re a professional, suddenly you’re being paid for it.

[AR] It changes things.

[DS] Yeah, it does. But it’s even better because, instead of fabricating a deadline, it’s a real one. And it does really help you get to your desk every morning.

[AR] It does. I think there’s a lot of talk about getting in our own way and procrastinating. And deadlines, although they are somewhat stressful, can really be helpful and they can focus us. If you don’t have a natural deadline in place for whatever reason, then I think it’s really good to just try and have a positive goal.

[DS] Yeah.

[AR] And make it realistic and not make it something... You know, a stick that you’re going to beat yourself with. But to be there and to be helpful.

Deadlines... To me, that’s the secret sauce. Because if you’re an aspiring author, if you’ve not got that deal yet, if you’ve not got the agent and it’s just you... and that blank page... Set yourself a deadline. Put it in there, engrave it. It’s the motivating factor to beat them all.
—David Solomons

[DS] I’ve just had a horrible flashback, speaking of. [Amanda laughing] I’m not going to name names, but he is one of the U.K.’s foremost novelists and screenwriters. I heard that he had writer’s block. I bounced up to him in a situation and I said: I’ve got the solution for you. It’s a little word processing program. It’s called Write or Die. And basically, you go online, you start typing, and you set yourself ‘I need to write 1,000 words in the next five minutes,’ whatever. 

[AR] Is this the one that starts deleting?

[DS] Yes. And so that’s what I did—and he looked at me like I was an idiot. Anyway, about a year later, I see the book that he was stuck on finally came out and he’s being interviewed about it. And he said: yeah, it would’ve been out six months earlier. But I met this guy, and he recommended this thing, and I wrote 40,000 words and it was absolute trash. There you go.

[AR] He may not have got to the finished result without that 40,000.

[DS] 40,000 words that deleted themselves, yeah. But that was him setting himself... Oh my God, am I recommending it again? [Note: the Write or Die app has since died itself, sadly] I guess it’s this thing about: we all suffer from distraction. And anything that helps focus—unless you’re him—is, in my mind, a good thing.

[AR] Yeah, absolutely.

[DS] We have hit our deadline. I think that’s it.

[AR] Very neatly. Brilliant. Without deleting.

[DS] Without deleting! Thank you very much. That was very entertaining.

[AR] Thank you, David. It was great to talk to you.

[DS] Alright.

Closing words

[Louise Dean] Thank you for joining us today. We are so pleased to have you along for the writing journey, and we hope to see you on another episode of The Novelry on Writing.

If you’d like to learn more, visit us at thenovelry.com. From first draft to finished manuscript, at The Novelry you’ll enjoy one-to-one coaching from bestselling authors, live writing classes with award-winning authors and literary agents, and you’ll work with a publishing editor all the way for submission to literary agents toward a publishing deal.

All writers learn from other writers, even the greats. Write your novel in good company. Join us at The Novelry.

We’ll show you how to start, coax your story into shape, and cheer you on to type The End.

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