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Stale dialogue can cause a reader to set a book aside in just a few lines. In this episode of our podcast, The Novelry on Writing, we learn how to craft dialogue that will captivate readers with writing coach Tara Conklin and editor Nic Caws. Read on for the episode transcript.
I know it sounds ridiculous, but it actually does, or at least it helps me just hear the character.
—Tara Conklin
Introduction
[Tara Conklin] Hi, my name is Tara Conklin. I’m a New York Times bestselling novelist, and I’m a writing coach here at The Novelry.
[Nic Caws] And hi, I’m Nic Caws. I’m a Senior Editor here at The Novelry, and I work on romance, Up Lit, and historical books.
[TC] Okay. We’re here today, Nic, to talk about writing dialogue.
[NC] We’re having a dialogue about dialogue.
[TC] You’re right, we are! That’s very clever. You must be an editor.
I really love writing dialogue now after many, many years of really struggling with it. But I feel like I’ve maybe finally figured out how to do it and to make it fun.
[NC] What did you struggle with when you were starting out?
Tip No. 1: The dialogue conundrum
[TC] That leads very nicely into tip number one, which I like to call the dialogue conundrum, which is—I was trying to recreate actual speech, you know, in kind of a verbatim way, which is actually what you should not do when writing on the page.
[NC] Yeah. I think it’s something, as an editor, I see a lot. I think it’s quite a common early mistake where you think: yes, I need to be writing dialogue as people say it in real life.
[TC] Yeah.
[NC] But the dialogue needs to sound natural, but not exactly how people speak.
[TC] That is, that’s exactly where I kind of tripped up, as I was trying to sound natural and have my characters speak like real people. But, you know, there’s so much filler and so much unnecessary words, verbiage that we use on a daily basis in our everyday conversations. And when you’re writing a novel, every line should have a purpose, right?
[NC] Are you talking about things, sort of filler words, things we say—sort of, like, kind of—or are you talking about, you know, the starts of conversations that people say, like: Hello! How are you? I’m fine...
[TC] Yeah. Both. Both!
[NC] Yeah. They are both common things that I know, as an editor, I’ve seen a lot of. But yeah, I think often it’s a case of just taking out more, isn’t it? You know, getting that red pen and crossing out those unnecessary filler lines, and the starts and beginnings, starts and ends of conversation.
[TC] Yeah.
[NC] And getting to the real meat of what your characters are trying to talk about.
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Tip No. 2: Focus on the speaker’s intent
[TC] Yes. Which is a very nice segue into tip number two, which is focusing on the speaker’s intent and what they want to do with the language that they’re delivering. And one thing I like to do is to sort of give my speaker an agenda. Like they... Like there’s something that they want to achieve in this dialogue, whether it’s flirting or asking for money, but not coming right out and saying it.
But the trick of it—and for me, the fun of it—is to not be too on the nose, you know? Like exactly, explicitly, what you want this character to say.
[NC] Writers often can think: okay, this character is angry. They’ll be speaking in a really angry manner, which means they might be, you know, loud or shouting, or saying really angry words. But sometimes anger could come across in that, you know, really quietly.
[TC] Yeah.
[NC] That sort of quiet, really controlled way that a character is speaking, and that will come across in what they’re saying, but it’ll also come across in how they’re saying it, so...
[TC] Yeah. That’s where you get into sort of the subtext of language.
[NC] Right.
[TC] And how just short little bits of dialogue can really convey a lot, and you can give your reader the benefit of the doubt that they will be able to pick up what the subtext is in a conversation.
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[NC] Yes. Because it’s so much about what’s not being said as well. It’s that sort of space around... We, as editors, talk about that sort of space around the dialogue. So it’s kind of what they’re doing when they’re pausing.
[TC] Yeah.
[NC] You know, the glances they’re giving each other, so it’s not always just about the words themselves. It’s sort of, it’s what you can convey in the blank spaces as well.
[TC] Have you ever read that really famous Ernest Hemingway short story, ‘Hills Like White Elephants’? Do you know that story?
[NC] No. I’m going to embarrass myself by saying no!
[TC] It’s famous as being this kind of masterclass in subtext, because there are two characters, a man and a woman, and they are basically talking about whether or not the woman should have an abortion.
[NC] Right.
[TC] But the word ‘pregnancy’ is never spoken, the word ‘abortion’ is never spoken, the word... I mean, there’s just—it’s never said explicitly between the two of them. You don’t even really know. It’s not even explicitly said that they’re in a relationship. And yet the sort of cumulative effect of all of this sideways talking is, clearly, she’s pregnant and he wants her to have an abortion and she doesn’t want to have one. And it’s—you should go read it after this.
[NC] Yes, I definitely should. It sounds like a brilliant example.
[TC] It is.
Because it’s so much about what’s not being said as well... We, as editors, talk about that sort of space around the dialogue. So it’s kind of what they’re doing when they’re pausing... so it’s not always just about the words themselves... it’s what you can convey in the blank spaces as well.
—Nic Caws
[NC] When it’s a novel, it’s not like a play, is it? It’s not, you know, one character says one thing, then they reply, and you know. You need to make sure that there is that sort of added context for the reader and it isn’t solely dialogue. Which is sort of that floating dialogue effect.
[TC] Yeah. You can have the sort of context of where they’re having a conversation and yeah, the pauses as you mentioned, like the space in between the words is almost as important as the words themselves.
[NC] Definitely.
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Tip No. 3: Don’t info-dump
[TC] That brings us not so elegantly, but still, to point three, which is don’t do an info dump when you’re writing your dialogue. And I think in movies is probably the most obvious place to see this. And I always notice it in scripts, where it’ll be information that one character delivers to another character that is so obviously not something they would actually say.
[NC] Yep.
[TC] But it’s information that the screenwriter thinks that the viewer or the reader needs to have. And so it’s, you know, the history of a place or how the heist is going to go down, you know? And it just always is so jarring and takes me out of the scene.
[NC] It’s so jarring. I’m always—I’m known to laugh in movies and when I’m watching TV shows with friends and I’m like: oh, great. Lots of exposition! So, yeah.
[TC] Do you see it in—do you see exposition delivered in dialogue in romance novels or historical fiction? Is there like one genre where it happens more often?
[NC] That’s interesting. I’m not sure whether it happens more in one genre or another, but I think it happens most of all in the openings of novels, which are the hardest thing to write anyway. And they change a lot. But I think there’s the... We always say, don’t info-dump in big paragraphs. But then sometimes that can lead writers to think: okay, well, I’ll use dialogue as exposition.
[TC] Yes!
[NC] But you have to do it in a really subtle way that feels, you know, natural. Otherwise, yes, it comes across as a kind of big flag of: okay, I’m telling you... I’m telling you, the reader, something here now.
[TC] Very clunky.
[NC] Yes.
[TC] Or the writer will use it to... There’ll be a piece of dialogue where information that both parties should already have is being talked about in a way that makes it clear that the reader needs to have this information. But...
[NC] That’s the ‘as you know, Bob’ dialogue.
[TC] Yes! That’s exactly it. That ‘as you know, dot dot dot...’
[NC] Yeah. ‘As you know, this thing happened last week.’ So, yes. Yeah. And I think that it just... It makes you as the reader feel like you’re sort of seeing behind the curtain at the theater, you know? You’re seeing all the mechanics and the kind of pulleys and what’s going on in the wings. And you know what? All of that stuff needs to happen, but as the reader, you don’t really want to see it.
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[TC] Yeah.
[NC] You know? And it’s the same when you’re reading a book. You’d rather not see the mechanics of it.
[TC] Yeah. That’s a good way of putting it. Because it is—it’s sort of the awkwardness when you’re writing your first draft or when you’re a new writer, you know?
[NC] Yeah.
[TC] And you’re not quite sure how to convey this information to the reader. And I think also, certainly when I was starting, I did not give my reader the benefit of the doubt. I felt like I had to explain every piece of backstory and every piece of, you know, emotion and not leave those spaces in between and let the reader glean things from a more artful exchange of dialogue between two characters.
[NC] And what do you do now, in terms of, you know, there’s always—you do need to convey information to your reader, don’t you?
[TC] Yeah.
Leave those spaces in between and let the reader glean things from a more artful exchange of dialogue between two characters.
—Tara Conklin
[NC] And I think that’s really tricky, so what do you do now in terms of not putting it in dialogue? Where do you, where do you manage to expose things?
[TC] Well, one thing is I try and get across information, like the factual information that is only 100% necessary, backstory information that is 100% necessary for the reader to understand the story.
[NC] Yeah.
[TC] And it is surprising how much. I will write pages and pages of backstory on every single one of my characters. But that is purely for me. And then, you know, maybe a character had a childhood illness or something, and I’ll write, you know, scenes of them being in the hospital and scenes of them, you know, developing a relationship with a nurse or like a really nice nurse that was kind to them. But then in the actual book, or in the actual narrative itself, it’ll be one line of: oh, I remember Nurse Cassidy, who was so kind to me when I was ill, you know? So that you don’t... So you know that they had an illness, you know that there was one person who was very important to them and helped them through that illness, but you don’t need to know what color the hospital bedsheets were, you know? Or like, what the sun looked like coming through the window. So I really... I think it’s a matter of just really paring it down.
[NC] And one line can say so much, as you say. You know, a simple nod to it can really be enough.
[TC] Exactly. Exactly.
Tip No. 4: Show your character
[TC] So, Nic, that brings us to point number four in our five tips for writing dialogue. And this kind of follows on from what we were talking about in conveying information through dialogue and how you have to be very selective about it. And I think the really wonderful thing that you can convey through dialogue, and you should really lean into it, is to convey your character and who that person is, who is speaking. And their word choice can say so much about who they are, you know, their level of education, their background, or even their value system. You know, how they view the world.
[NC] You see, even something as simple as for a character, for example:
- one character might say: yes
- another character might say: yeah
- another character might say: yep
You know, even selecting that sort of difference in dialogue can, you know, it can show so much about a person’s age, as you say, kind of level of education perhaps, or just how formal or informal they are and who they’re talking to, even.
[TC] Exactly.
[NC] Someone might say something different to their boss. Or they might say—they might speak slightly differently to their mom, for example. So, yeah, you can show so much about how comfortable, perhaps, a character is feeling through their dialogue. Which is great. It’s good fun.
[TC] Yeah. Do you see any sort of common missteps in manuscripts in terms of characterization through dialogue?
[NC] Yeah. That’s interesting. I think when writers are starting out, they’re really focused on finding their own writerly voice. You know, that sort of narrative. Who am I as a writer? How am I going to convey what I want to in my own sort of voice? And not just copy writers that they know and love—which, by the way, is a great place to start, is reading writers that you love and want to sort of emulate.
[TC] Yeah.
[NC] But, yes, sometimes they can forget that every single character needs their own voice and their own way of speaking. And that, you know, you don’t want a conversation to sound like it could be the same person talking to themselves in the mirror, you know? You have to make sure that everyone is sounding as different as they can. They’ve got their own intentions and their own motives and their own patterns of speaking.
One line can say so much... You know, a simple nod to it can really be enough.
—Nic Caws
[TC] Exactly. Exactly. In my second novel, I had three sisters and I really struggled in early drafts to find individual voices for each of them because they had, you know, they came from the same place. They were all young women in the book. And it really came down to sort of what their... What they wanted out of life. Like one of them was a doctor and was very—she was very driven professionally, and she spoke very to the point, very quick. She was always sort of in a rush. Another one was a mom and she spoke—she was always kind of distracted by her young children, right? So like, she was never finishing her sentences and she—
[NC] Of course.
[TC] —and she was always sort of being pulled away to deal with a child. And then the youngest sister was an artist and a poet, and of course that was the one that was the most fun to write, because she always had a certain... And she had no children. So she sort of had the focus and the natural lyricism to speak very poetically and very sort of—she really took care with how she spoke. But she was very, you know, she used very floral language, very elaborate language. So... But that was really a matter of me developing each of those characters individually and then using dialogue and their manner of speaking to give us more insight into who they were as characters and as people and what was important to them.
[NC] Yeah, that’s a brilliant example because, yeah, as you say, sisters will have grown up often in similar circumstances. So I think siblings are—yeah, that’s really interesting to hear the ways you managed to pull them apart.
[TC] Yeah.
[NC] Brilliant.
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Tip No. 5: Read the dialogue aloud
[TC] This is the fifth and final tip for writing dialogue, which is...
[NC] Here we go.
[TC] Which is one that I use a lot, which is to read your dialogue aloud. And I... My kids will always kind of giggle at me because I use funny voices. I try on, like if I’m speaking a male character, when I’m speaking I’ll be like, OHHH, I’ll go very low and use a low voice. And then if it’s an old lady, I’ll use an old lady voice, you know?
[NC] Fantastic.
[TC] And like, I know it sounds ridiculous, but it actually does, or at least it helps me just hear the character and feel the authenticity of the language. What do you think about that? Do you think I’m crazy?
[NC] No, of course not! I think, yeah, it’s something we say as editors as well, is—you know, grab a friend! If you are at that point where you feel like you can share it and sort of go through it—and you don’t need to read the whole novel out loud, of course. But if there’s a particular section of dialogue that you’re struggling with, for example. Or you’re thinking, does this feel natural? Does it sound like something we might, you know, people might say? And is it, you know, having enough purpose? Yeah! Grab a friend, read through it, take turns, and have some fun. Have some fun with it.
[TC] Yeah. That is always the number one, I think, in writing, is to make sure that you are enjoying the process and you are having fun with it. Because if you are not enjoying the writing and finding it, you know, meaningful for you, then chances are, the reader is not going to be enjoying reading it.
[NC] No, absolutely. Yeah.
Grab a friend! If you are at that point where you feel like you can share it and sort of go through it—and you don’t need to read the whole novel out loud, of course. But if there’s a particular section of dialogue that you’re struggling with, for example... Yeah! Grab a friend, read through it, take turns, and have some fun.
—Nic Caws
[TC] That wraps up our discussion about writing dialogue. Nic, it was such a delight to speak with you today.
[NC] It was so much fun. Yeah. I had a great time. So, yeah. Thanks.
[TC] Thanks, everyone. See you next time.
[NC] Bye!
Closing words
[Louise Dean] Thank you for joining us today. We are so pleased to have you along for the writing journey and we hope to see you on another episode of The Novelry on Writing.
If you’d like to learn more, visit us at thenovelry.com. From first draft to finished manuscript, at The Novelry you’ll enjoy one-to-one coaching from bestselling authors, live writing classes with award-winning authors and literary agents, and you’ll work with a publishing editor all the way for submission to literary agents toward a publishing deal.
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