The Novelry on Writing Podcast: How to Create Juicy Conflict in Your Story

What is conflict in a story? It’s the challenges your characters will face in your book. Conflict is a critical element in any good novel because it not only drives the plot, it also builds character. In this episode of our podcast, The Novelry on Writing, authors and writing coaches Emylia Hall and Urban Waite share five great ways to create juicy conflict in your stories. Read on for the episode transcript.

When I did that first draft of that cartoonish scene in the dunes, I didn’t go: Oh my God, I’m a terrible writer. This is such an awful scene. I can’t... I’m going to walk away from the whole thing!

I thought: No. Do you know what? This is part of the natural process. It’s getting it down initially and then it’s going back and layering it in and layering it in.
—Emylia Hall

Introduction

[Emylia Hall] Hello, I am Emylia Hall, the author of the Shell House Detectives mystery series, among other novels. And I’m also a writing coach at The Novelry.

[Urban Waite] And, hello, I’m Urban Waite. I’m the author of four crime suspense novels. And I’m also a coach at The Novelry.

[EH] We are here today to talk juicy conflicts, aren’t we, Urban? And to offer you five tips for writing juicy conflicts.

Conflict is essential

[EH] Conflict is essential. That’s got to be the first tip, right? It’s essential in any form of novel. For what we do—crime, mystery—your novel’s nothing without conflict. But I would argue all novels are nothing without conflict.

[UW] Agreed, yeah. These are the juicy bits you need to add to the story to engage people, to get them to want to know what happens. To put your characters in conflict is kind of the heart of the story.

[EH] Yeah. Because novels are fundamentally about change. And we know as individuals that we never really get to change unless we are being tested by a situation. You know, you hear that phrase ‘an experience is character building...’ Well, we are rarely talking about a positive experience there. It tends to be a negative experience that asks something that bit more of you.

And I think when you are writing conflict in a story, and you’re trying to design how you can really test your characters, thinking about the harder that conflict can butt up against their deepest desires, the better.

[UW] Yeah. Human beings are complicated things, and there’s so many little parts that go into them that when you are walking your characters through these larger stories where horrible stuff is happening to them, you test them, you see what they did, what they’ll do, and they make choices along the way. Sometimes, those choices create more conflict. Sometimes, it solves conflict. But usually, it’s like they hit a wall, they have to go another direction, they hit another wall, they have to go another direction. And that’s really the story that you want to follow. And then you want them to change along the way.

[EH] Yeah. I think what you said about lots of small conflicts, you know, you get past one, you hit another... I think that’s a really important thing to bear in mind, isn’t it? Because you’ll often have a central conflict in a novel.

At The Novelry, we talk about: what’s your reader reading to find out? That’s likely to be that central conflict, but equally, you are going to have lots of micro-conflicts, let’s say.

[UW] Yeah. For most storylines—if you are writing a novel, a screenplay, really any larger story—you’re going to have your A, B, C, D, forever plotlines, and you’re following all of them and you’re weaving them all together, braiding them together. And it gets complicated. But if you recognize what you’re doing, understand that it’s necessary for the change and pushing the conflict, you’re going to be okay.

[EH] Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so central to the whole act of writing a novel, isn’t it? I think if you can bear that in mind, then you’re going to be standing in good stead to deliver something engaging, because it’s about showing character. It’s about propulsion, it’s about reader engagement. In fact, I’m not sure I can think about any part of the writing process that conflict isn’t deeply stitched into.

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[UW] Yeah. I mean, I’m laughing because I think, sometimes, when you’re reading a novel and you’re following along, you’re empathizing with the character, and they’re about to make a horrible, horrible decision [Emylia laughing] and you’re just screaming at them, you know? Your mind screaming: don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it!

And then they do it. And you just see it coming. But it’s wonderful to watch. You know, to see them have to squirm or go down a road you probably wouldn’t have taken. And it’s all part of feeding into the idea of conflict and how this character, especially for crime and suspense, how they’re going to survive, you know? Or not survive. Because it’s crime and conflict and suspense and death, usually.

Conflict builds character

[EH] I think how you survive is central to the experience of reading, right? Because this leads us to our second point—that conflict is character-building.

I know that the reason I read is because I’m fascinated by how other people live their lives. I think that’s probably the reason we all love to see behind the curtain, to see what it’s like to walk in somebody else’s shoes. And we are fascinated by how other people react to certain situations. Like: oh my God, what would I do if that happened to me?

[UW] Yeah.

[EH] So, the greater the conflict, the bigger the ask—the more rapt we are as readers, you know? Because we think: oh my God, if a gunman walked into this room now, what would I do?  Would I be the person to hide behind the— 

[UW] Jump out this window.

[EH] You jump out the window. Maybe I’d talk him down! Maybe I’d be the hero! You know, there’s all those things, and I think the more you can put yourself in that person’s shoes, then that’s what reading is all about. It’s key, isn’t it?

What’s so important is, say, that scene with the gunman coming into the room: for that not to feel like melodrama, for it not to feel insincere, inauthentic, we have to believe in the characters that are in that situation. Because if it’s Plot with a capital P, and if it’s Conflict with a capital C, without character also being completely, fully realized, I think we just switch off as readers.

[UW] Basically, that’s the idea of character-building. Conflict all feeds into it. The choices made, what the character does, whether they jump out a window or talk them down or throw a tree at them, or I don’t know what other things we have. We could take these cups and... Who knows. We might survive, we might not.

But it is all part of the story. And then it all feeds into one thing, feeds into the larger plot—A, B, C, D, or whatever.

That’s the idea of character-building. Conflict all feeds into it. The choices made, what the character does... It is all part of the story. And then it all feeds into the larger plot.
—Urban Waite

Conflict should have layers

[EH] Thinking about those, the main plot, the subplots—I think we have layers when it comes to conflicts as well, don’t we?

[UW] Yeah.

[EH] We have the internal and the external. And on the face of it, the external conflict might be what initially draws a reader in. I think, as writers, it might be the thing that immediately makes us think: oh, I’ve got a novel on my hands here. I’ve got a story, because I’ve got this amazing scene where a gunman comes into the room or this car chase or whatever.

But actually, I think those internal conflicts—the smaller things, the things that are more emotionally driven—are what can really create that engagement between reader and story.

[UW] Yeah. Novels are basically built in layers, like the metaphor of the paintbrush and brush strokes as you build up your novel and create your characters. Desire plays a huge thing in: what does the character want? It all factors in, and so you have to feed the novel, feed the conflict to get to where you want to go.

[EH] And make it feel like there’s a real person at the center of this. Thinking about our Hero Books at The Novelry, a fantastic one is Missing, Presumed  by the late, great Susie Steiner. 

[UW] Yeah.

[EH] And one of the reasons I love that novel is: we’ve got DS Manon Bradshaw, who’s this fantastic detective. She’s unequivocally brilliant at her job, but away from work, she’s a mess, right?

• She drinks too much.
• She’s lonely as hell, so she goes out on these strings of terrible dates with people.
• She has a really fractious relationship with her sister.
• At work, she can be reckless.
• She can annoy her colleagues

But she does get the job done. For me, as a reader, what is so fascinating about that character and, therefore, about the stories, are those internal conflicts that Manon experiences and overcomes to a degree through the course of the story. So, yes, she cracks the case. But she also faces down those other struggles along the way, which are often more relatable because, you know, going back to our gunman in the room, thinking about him—not that many people, thank God, have an experience like that. But actually, loads of us have an experience where maybe we’re feeling undervalued in our work, or we’re having a tense time with our partner, or we’re a little bit scared of a fairly mundane-seeming thing. And they are those very relatable points to stitch into a story.

[UW] Yeah. That character in herself is very good, well drawn. The idiosyncrasies of the character really help them become human in your mind instead of just a story on a page. And that creates empathy and creates a desire in the reader to see what happens, to want them to survive, want them to solve the case, want them to just get one good date!

[EH] Yeah. Again, thinking about crime stories and crime novels—if a detective feels like a machine, then we just don’t connect with the story in the same way. Maybe we are drawn in by the plot, maybe we applaud the way the investigation comes together, but we are missing that really human connection. It’s my theory, it’s probably not that novel of a theory, but everything in novel writing comes back to character. Regardless of what aspect of novel writing you’re talking about, really, it’s all about character.

[UW] Yeah. And how they respond to the various environments they’re in. There’s:

• Character versus nature
• Character versus society
• Character versus character
• Character versus self

So, you have The Old Man and the Sea: character versus nature. The Handmaid’s Tale: character versus society. I mean, there’s countless character versus character...

[EH] And countless characters to bring to the page. I think that’s one of the fun things to think about when you are designing a novel and you are thinking: who can I put into this world that is probably worst placed to handle this conflict? Because that’s more interesting, right? The further you have to travel emotionally to overcome something, that’s more interesting for us as readers.

[UW] Yeah. I mean, you usually introduce the larger problem and then you define the world and then you find that perfect character that’s not quite perfect enough. You know, they’re not quite up to the job. And that’s the story. That’s the process of them solving it. How do they do it? And you just keep loading things on, which is fun sometimes.

[EH] Keep throwing those rocks, Nabokov style.

[UW] Yeah.

Who can I put into this world that is probably worst placed to handle this conflict? Because that’s more interesting... The further you have to travel emotionally to overcome something, that’s more interesting for us as readers.
—Emylia Hall

Empathetic characters

[EH] Our fourth point is that we are only going to care about conflict, we are only going to have any kind of response to it, if we care about the characters involved. That’s where all the emotional intensity comes from.

As a writer, you can cook up something that sounds fantastic in 2D. But when you bring it to the page, if you are not peopling that situation with fantastic characters, then you are only ever going to engage readers on one particular level. And we’re wanting to hit it out of the park. We want to engage all the senses, right?

I’ve got an example from my writing life where that really came in acutely. So, in my mystery series, The Shell House Detectives, in the first book I have this knife fight in the dunes. It’s cozy crime, right? So, I’m pushing the envelope a little bit with my knife fight... But I wanted people to take it seriously. I wanted people to—

[UW] It’s conflict.

[EH] Yeah, it’s conflict! I wanted to take my two characters seriously, who are plunged into this situation. I wanted the reader to feel the peril of the moment. And that really gave me pause for thought, because I thought: there’s a good chance this scene is going to come across as cartoonish or melodramatic if I don’t really pay attention to my characters. And I feel like I did that in a couple of different ways—eventually. It was not there in the first draft.

[UW] Did you feel like you had to layer in things as you built it?

[EH] Yeah. So the first write of it probably was cartoonish and melodramatic, because I was just slapping down the action.

[UW] Yeah.

[EH] And then I went back and I looked at the first half of the novel, which, you know, you have to get readers onside and believing in characters pretty early on and then you can ratchet things up later in the novel and they’ll go along with you. I had to make sure my characters were as well-drawn as possible, so by the time we got to those more dramatic parts of the story, the emotional response wasn’t going to be lost on them.

I also found—I don’t know if you have this when you are writing action—that slowing it down is actually really important. To really step into the moment with the characters and try to convey what they’re feeling, hopefully in a way that feels fresh and original. So the reader’s like: oh, knife fight in the dunes. Yeah. I’ve seen that one before...

As a writer, you can cook up something that sounds fantastic in 2D. But when you bring it to the page, if you are not peopling that situation with fantastic characters, then you are only ever going to engage readers on one particular level.
—Emylia Hall

[UW] So what you are saying is a tool that I use, which is a placeholder. You have an idea of what you want there, and you know it’s not quite right. And I do the same thing, where I’ll go back and read through the pages to get the feel of it, you know? And when I get back to that placeholder, where I’ve put down ‘it wasn’t quite right,’ I would imagine—and I have done this a few times—that when you get to that point, you can nail it.

You know, you’re in the scene, you’re with the characters, you’re building the action and the suspense, and then you can really land it. But again, it’s built in layers, so you can always go back.

[EH] That’s the important thing about writing, I think, is to keep remembering that it is built in layers. It is a process. You don’t have to do everything at every stage. Indeed, it’s impossible to do everything at every stage. I think that’s the benefit of being a writer with more books under your belt. It’s not that you find writing easier…

[UW] Oh no.

[EH] It’s just that you are more familiar with the process.

[UW] Yeah.

A tool that I use is a placeholder. You have an idea of what you want, and you know it’s not quite right... It’s built in layers, so you can always go back.
—Urban Waite

[EH] So, when I did that first draft of that cartoonish scene in the dunes, I didn’t go: oh my God, I’m a terrible writer. This is such an awful scene. I can’t... I’m going to walk away from the whole thing. I thought: no, do you know what? This is part of the natural process. It’s getting it down initially and then it’s going back and layering it in and layering it in and just holding your faith in that process.

[UW] Yeah. I mean, it was probably very intimidating when you first thought of the scene, but you knew you needed it and you had to sort of walk yourself through it. And now here you are, able to talk about it, you know?

[EH, laughing] Hindsight’s a wonderful thing! Do you feel the stress of the moment when you are writing a scene of great conflict? Are you feeling it? Are you feeling those punches or reacting to it?

[UW] Specifically when I’m writing, I kind of see the scene as it acts out in my head. And sometimes you overwrite it, which is just part of the process, and you have to rein it in a little bit. But, yeah, I think the best writing comes when you are so engaged with your character and the conflict they’re involved in that it sort of forces you almost to make these incredible choices and leap the giant cliff or whatever, fall into the river and swim for your life, you know? Whatever you’re doing.

I somehow have lots of characters that fall off cliffs and swim in rivers! [laughing] So that was my go-to knife fight in the dunes.

[EH] Do you have personal experience of these crises?

[UW] Of course, yes. I live quite the life of conflict.

[EH] When I’m writing, I react very physically to it as well. So, if anyone had a camera on me when I’m writing, it would be ridiculous, because my face is pulling all kinds of expressions. [Urban laughing] Ultimately, you need to feel what you are writing as a reader as well. If I write a scene that I hope is moving, if it doesn’t move me in the writing, if I don’t tear up at the end of my novels... They’re not working yet.

[UW] Yeah.

[EH] They need something more. Maybe that’s just super self-indulgent, but it’s how I work.

[UW] Yeah, I think a lot of us probably act things out. You know, we’re probably not the best actors, but we do act things out in the safety of our writing rooms.

[EH] So, shall we go from falling off cliffs and getting thrown into rivers to micro-conflicts?

[UW] Sure.

Micro-conflicts

[EH] Micro-conflicts is our fifth point for people to remember, because they are potentially overlooked when you’re dreaming up that grand, exciting novel idea. But actually, having micro-conflict stitched through the pages of your story can really hold the reader.

[UW] The idea behind a suspense novel or a thriller is that you are leading the reader to all these tiny little moments of conflict, and some can be very major moments of conflict. And you lead them right to the edge of the cliff and don’t push them off, you know? [laughing] So, they are minor conflicts and there can be all kinds, like conflicts related to relationships, conflicts like we were talking about:

• Character versus nature
• Character versus character
• Character versus self

Self is a big one for me, because it’s self-doubt and the things that pile up against your character as they walk through this world.

You are leading the reader to all these tiny little moments of conflict, and some can be very major moments of conflict. And you lead them right to the edge of the cliff and don’t push them off... And there can be all kinds... Things that pile up against your character as they walk through this world.
—Urban Waite

[EH] I think that’s incredibly relatable for a lot of people as well. I think that’s what really draws people in on a very basic and human level. I’m thinking of the Q&A we had with the brilliant author Tess Gerritsen. She had a fantastic example of how she uses micro-conflicts to good effect, and she said, you know, it’s not about car chases and gunfights, a knife fight in the dunes... Hello! [Urban laughing]

She gave an example of a moment from her own life where she felt something like this in a story actually has readers pretty hooked. She was about to go out for an evening to a book launch or something. And her mom—she’s a grown adult at this point—her mom said: ‘Oh, you’re not wearing that skirt, are you? It’s a bit short.’ And she just walked out of the house with her mom’s words ringing in her ears, thinking: oh God, is it a bit short? How annoying is that of my mom to even mention it? And it stayed with her all through the evening.

And as readers, you’re going: well, how will she respond to this? You know, will she go in and change? Will she roll up the waistband like I used to do at school, make it even shorter? Or would she call up her mom and it’d be the straw that breaks the camel’s back? And she tells her everything that she’s always wanted to say, tipped over by that one ‘oh, that skirt’s a little bit short’ moment.

[UW] Yeah.

[EH] Those kinds of very minor incidents, ripples, little tensions in novels, are what keep us engaged—because they’re so relatable for our own lives. 

[UW] Yeah. Usually, when you are writing a novel, you introduce an idea early on within a scene or the larger novel, and then that idea sort of festers. And it becomes, at least for me, it becomes a little bit rotten and nagging at the character, and hopefully in the reader’s mind as they remember things.

And you usually leave little breadcrumbs along the way, so that these little tiny conflicts, these little stabs of the knife, work their way through the novel and then are eventually addressed in some way. Or if they’re not addressed, become these outward conflicts or threats that we, as the reader, might see coming, but the character doesn’t see coming at all. 

[EH] Yep, poor characters. We put them through it, don’t we? We really do.

So, we have our big overarching conflict for the story, but then making sure that throughout, we have these minor ones as well. It’d be nice if life was like that, wouldn’t it? Just one big conflict to address.

[UW] I don’t know. It sounds very stressful.

[EH] Well, I’ve loved talking about conflict with you, Urban. It’s actually been very relaxing and not at all stressful.

[UW] You know, we didn’t get into any fights. No knife fights. No fist fights.

[EH] Maybe we’re disappointing the audience by not actually bringing the conflict into action. But hopefully, that’s given people some food for thought when they’re talking about writing.

[UW] Yeah, there were some really nice tips shared here today, and things to remember when you are putting your novel together. Because it does, it happens in all these little tiny spaces, you know? Little bits of suspense along the way, little scenes, tiny conflicts.

[EH] Go forth and make trouble! Give us characters that we can really care about, right? So we can feel their pain as readers. And I think that’s probably a winning formula.

Closing words

[Louise Dean] Thank you for joining us today. We are so pleased to have you along for the writing journey, and we hope to see you on another episode of The Novelry on Writing.

If you’d like to learn more, visit us at thenovelry.com. From first draft to finished manuscript, at The Novelry you’ll enjoy one-to-one coaching from bestselling authors, live writing classes with award-winning authors and literary agents, and you’ll work with a publishing editor all the way for submission to literary agents toward a publishing deal.

All writers learn from other writers, even the greats. Write your novel in good company. Join us at The Novelry.

We’ll show you how to start, coax your story into shape, and cheer you on to type The End.

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